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TOPIC: 600 Year Old Bras

600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #128

  • joann999
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For anyone who missed it, this story was released a few weeks ago:

www.livescience.com/21691-600-year-old-m...bras-discovered.html
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600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #138

  • bookwyrm
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I saw that. It's totally awesome.
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600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #161

600 year old bra? Interesting. But I would like to wait for a full scientific study of the garment, i.e. e analysis of the fabric, threads and construction. Carbon dating may be no use as I think Carbon dating has a 500-year margin of error. 600 years old would put the garment in the time of Henry 4th 1399 to 1413.

But can we please put to bed once and for all the continuing urban myth that appears in the article !! And in every badly researched fashion history book. The urban myth that Mary Phelps-Jacobs invented and patented the bra in 1914.
The myth goes;
Mary Phelps-Jacobs with the help of her maid made a bra out of two handkerchiefs.
She patented the bra under the name of Caresse Crosby.
She subsequently sold the patent to Warner’s for $1000.
Now do some research, look at USA patent No 1,115,674 Patented 3rd November 1914.
Mary Phelps-Jacobs uses her own name in the patent.
She states in the patent that she has “invented new and useful improvements in brassieres”,
So undergarments known as brassieres were already around.
The “new and useful improvements” were the use of long ribbons to tie the bra low down at the back so as to not “ interfere with the wearing of evening gowns low cut at the back”
So all she was doing was moving the position of the back straps / wings.
And finally Warner’s did not purchase the patent for $1000, if you do not believe me then write to them and ask them, as I did several years ago.
Mary Phelps-Jacobs was not the first person to patent an undergarment as a “brassiere” Check out USA patent No 1,1006,184 by C.R. De Bevoise.
As patents are witnessed legal documents you can use them as primary source evidence.

So there you go, I think that’s “Myth Busted” (ooh, sorry for that one :-))
Or “ I’m glad I got that of my chest” (ooooh, and sorry for that one :-) :-))

Corset Hugs
Mark
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600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #162

  • jerwin
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Beatrix Nutz's CV lists
Bras in the 15th Century? A Preliminary Report as her latest publication. Unfortunately it's only an abstract, and it dates to 13 May 2011. At the time
So far no radiocarbon dating has been carried out on the textiles that would prove or disprove the age of the objects as taking samples would cause irreversible damage however slight. Instead all other options of investigation, like searching for comparable finds, will be applied first.

The age of the bra is based on the history of the building, and the fact that it was found with clothing characteristic of the time period.
The building history, according to notes in the itinerary of Paolo Santonino 1485 A.D., as well as investigations on construction techniques performed by Martin Mittermaier and Walter Hauser (Landeskonservatorat Tirol) and the archaeological feature heavily suggest a dating of the finds to the 15th century. It may be assumed that the vault spandrel was filled with waste during the addition of the 2nd storey in order to level the floor.

Honestly, I wouldn't trust the non-academic press to give an accurate account of the carbon dating report. Generally, though, the precision is a lot more exact than +/- 500 years.
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by jerwin. Report to moderator
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600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #163

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Ah ha!

Here's something a little more recent:

Mittelalterliche Unterwäsche aus Schloss Lengberg, Osttirol

and in English

Medieval lingerie from Lengberg Castle, East-Tyrol
As no comparable archaeological textiles of medieval “bras” were to be found, fiber samples of two bras were sent to the ETH (Eidgenössissche Technische Hochschule = Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) in Zürich to be Carbon-14 dated. In addition fiber samples of the pair of underpants and two other textiles were also radiocarbon-dated. All results confirmed the dating of the finds to the 15th century.
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600 Year Old Bras 2 years 8 months ago #166

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Sweet! Thanks for doing the legwork on that!
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